But Are You Thriving? Episode 7 Recap: Practicing Self-Care & Spirituality With Santigold 

You can’t describe Santigold’s music in just one word. Fusing her own blend of hip-hop, punk rock, pop, and dance, hits like “L.E.S. Artistes” have made her a favorite across genres for the past two decades. 

Aside from her career as a singer, songwriter, and producer, Santigold is also a mother, a deep thinker, and a conscious consumer with an interest in nutrition and holistic wellness. In this conversation with Thrive Market co-founder Gunnar Lovelace, the two dive deep into her meditation routine, her musical process, and her thoughts on placing value on her creative work — and staying well while often touring the globe for many months of the year. 

Full transcription below. Subscribe, download, and listen to this and every episode on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

But Are You Thriving? | Episode 7: Practicing Self-Care & Spirituality with Santigold 

Gunnar Lovelace: Hello everybody. This is Gunnar Lovelace, your co-host of, But, Are You Thriving? I’m also a co-founder of Thrive Market. So, happy to be here today with a dear friend, and ally in many things, Santigold. So great to have you on our podcast.

Santigold:

Hi, so happy to be here.

Gunnar Lovelace:

I so appreciate you making time. I know as a mom and an entrepreneur and an artist in the 21st century, your time is very precious. And I’m really, really excited to share your work and our conversation with our audience.

We have a few questions that we like to run through kind of at the beginning, and obviously I’m a huge fan of your work and your music and I’ve been tracking your expansion of your creativity and entrepreneurial life.

But I just thought for our audience, in your own words, we’d love to just have a little bit about your background and what it is that you feel like is relevant to share about what you’re focused on these days.

Santigold:

Okay. Well, my name is Santigold, which is really Santigold:, but my performing name is Santigold. I am from Philadelphia. I spend a lot of time in Brooklyn, New York. I went to Wesleyan University and then I started working in the music industry, first a songwriter, and then as a performer, singer, songwriter, artist.

And then as I did that, I sort of ventured out to … really, I always just say I’m an artist, and that’s like the blanket description of who and what I am. Because I’ve basically found ways through my music to just use my creativity across so many different things, including directing videos and designing costumes and doing choreography.

And now, with this new record, I’ve made a tea, by the same name of my record that is supposed to be sort of the multisensory experience of some of the themes of the record. And then also, I’ve started a podcast that was inspired by the process of making the record, called Noble Champions. Yeah. So, that’s where I’m at these days.

Gunnar Lovelace:

Beautiful. And you and I have always talked about health and wellness and consciousness and spirituality and kind of where we are as a species. And I’m curious, was there like a definitive, like aha moment in your life that really kind of expanded or changed your views on health and wellness? Or was it more an incremental process for you?

Santigold: 

Well, the initial aha is so strange and doesn’t make any sense. But I’m going to tell you.

Gunnar Lovelace:

Sounds like a good story.

Santigold: 

It doesn’t make any sense at all. I was in college and it was like my sophomore year, and we went to Blockbuster to watch movies, to rent some movies to watch. And they used to have so much junk food, and they had like, all the stuff that I never normally ate, but we just went crazy. And I remember we bought Twizzlers and Cherry Coke and Milk Duds and all this stuff. And then we rented Clueless, which doesn’t — I’m telling you the story makes no sense.

So, we get back to the house and we’re watching Clueless and amongst all the things happening, I remember they had like a meal on their plate that looked pretty healthy. And I was like, “I want my life to be like that.”

It was such a weird thing to get out of the movie Clueless, and it wasn’t that healthy. It was just like a clean little plate of vegetables and some meat and whatever. But I was like, “I want my life to be like that,” specifically about eating healthy, in that moment.

And so, I didn’t know anything about what that meant, really. I grew up, my mom’s from Mississippi and my dad is from Philadelphia. And my dad used to like junk food and candy and stuff. And my mom, she fried a lot of food. She liked cooked food, but they fried a lot of stuff. And I didn’t really have an idea what healthy meant.

So, the first thing I said was, “I’m not going to eat chicken anymore.” It was just the only thing I knew to say. And my diet was very chicken heavy at the time. And so, I just sat about in Middletown, Connecticut in the nineties, early nineties, trying to figure out what you ate when you didn’t eat chicken.

And it took me into these new stores, these health food stores. And I feel like then it was just a very slow discovery process that lasted throughout my life. Once you put yourself in a different environment and you start learning like, what are other options to eat?

And, oh, what’s yoga like, and what’s Qigong and what’s Shiatsu? And it just keeps going from there. What kind of meditation is this? So, it just grew from this one decision that I made (I don’t know), out of dinner. And it just changed the course that I was on.

Gunnar Lovelace:

That’s such a random way-

Santigold:

I know.

Gunnar Lovelace:

To be eating Twizzlers, watching Clueless.

Santigold:

Clueless.

Gunnar Lovelace:

I was expecting something different.

Santigold:

I’m telling you. But see, that’s what’s so cool about it. It’s like, it starts with where you’re at. Like that’s where I was at, you know?

Gunnar Lovelace:

Totally. No, exactly. And I think my guess, knowing you is you’ve probably always been just a student of life.

Santigold:

Right.

Gunnar Lovelace:

So, you’re just kind of like always eager to learn which is really … I can relate to that. For me, I’m just always so curious about everything.

And the fact that you kind of took yourself through that journey. It never ends. Every time you and I talk, we’re talking about some wacky new thing that we’re doing for our health.

And for me, my entryway was hypochondria and my mother, she was very focused on it. But just constantly being concerned, I was dying of some illness or disease made me-

Santigold:

Well, I was going to say that too, because cancer runs in my family and my grandmother, my father’s mother, she had passed away before I was born from breast cancer at like, I think she was about 46, and then many of her siblings. And then my father eventually passed away from pancreatic cancer and my aunt.

Santigold: 

And so, as time went on, I was, I was very — I’m not going to say that I’m making decisions out of fear, but I also want to do my best. I want to do my best.

Gunnar Lovelace:

I would say I’ve made a lot of decisions around my health and wellness out of fear. So, I didn’t realize that you and I had hypochondriac tendencies. Yeah. Honestly, if I were to look back on my life, it’s one of the greatest singular sources of suffering in my life has been the way I have tortured myself with hypochondria.

And I think it also like relates to a curiosity of like death in general. Like what’s the transition? How does it work? Which is obviously a much deeper conversation.

Santigold: 

But I don’t feel like I’m a hypochondriac. I feel like I’m a bit of a perfectionist, which is a weird thing to come into this conversation. But what happens is you feel like if you know that something is the right thing to do for yourself and you’re not doing it, there’s this like nagging-

Gunnar Lovelace:

Yeah.

Santigold:

Like almost guilt. And so, it’s that, it’s like you know what to do, so why aren’t you doing, why aren’t you taking all of these supplements and doing all of these different meditations and exercises every day, while you’re raising children and being an artist? So, that’s more for me. I don’t feel-

Gunnar Lovelace:

Good for you. I’m really happy for you. You’re not a hypochondriac.

Santigold:

No. I don’t think I am. But I know, I think about it, I think about, “Oh, this prevents cancer. This is good, and you should be taking this every day.”

So, I’m more just know what I need to pay attention to and look out for, and I try, but the worst thing for me is stress. That’s the one thing that I really-

Gunnar Lovelace:

I know. That’s so-

Santigold:

In the speed of society right now. And all the things that you’re supposed to do to survive, it’s hard to not have an extreme amount of stress and even anxiety.

Gunnar Lovelace:

Yeah. How’s your sleep?

Santigold: 

Depends. Right now it’s not very good because I have three kids. I have four-year-old twins and an eight-year-old, and they still get up in the night and come into our room. All of them. So, it’s like just musical beds all night.

And then when I’m woken up, I have a hard time going right back to sleep, especially if there’s a lot going on. My mind is like overactive and I can’t turn it off sometimes. So, sometimes when I wake up, I’m up for like three hours and then it really affects me in a bad way.

Gunnar Lovelace:

That’s really intense. I’m the same way. I’m a super light sleeper in general. Once I get woken up, especially if I’m in a more stressed out place (which is unfortunately been more than I like to admit), I have a hard time going back to sleep. I have a few tricks that have definitely helped me, like having an audiobook ready to go.

Santigold: 

Me too.

Gunnar Lovelace:

That really helps me.

Santigold: 

Any audiobook?

Gunnar Lovelace:

It can’t be too exciting because then I get drawn in, but it can’t be too boring. So, it has to be somewhere in between, because otherwise my mind goes off. And then I have these like zero EMF headphones, these Air Tube headphones. What do you use to listen to, when you’re sleeping at night?

Santigold: 

Honestly, I used to have these little in-ear Bose, noise cancellation ones. But I don’t even know what happened to them. And so, now I just turn my phone down really quiet, so nobody else can hear. It’s like almost right by my head. But I have it on AirPod, and-

Gunnar Lovelace:

I’m going to send you a link to a headphone that actually takes away noise. But it puts no EMFs into your head.

Santigold: 

Oh, cool.

Gunnar Lovelace:

It’s a little Air Tube headphone that I use for sleeping. I’ll send you a link to it.

Santigold: 

Yeah, send me that.

Gunnar Lovelace:

Yeah.

Santigold: 

But there’s this audio book, and I actually haven’t even read the whole book, and I’ve had it for quite a while, but it’s called The Self in Full Bloom by Mukti. And it’s: Teachings and Practices for Embodied Awakening. And its chapters-

Gunnar Lovelace:

I love Mukti.

Santigold:

Really?

Gunnar Lovelace:

Yeah.

Santigold: 

There’s this chapter 17 that’s this meditation, that literally whenever I wake up, I just go straight to chapter 17. And I literally, if it doesn’t work the first time, I play it on repeat until I fall asleep.

Gunnar Lovelace:

Yeah. That’s funny. Pema Chodron’s, When Things Fall Apart has been the book for me this last year. I probably listened to it 20 times the same way, every time I’d wake up and I would just work my way and then start over again.

Gunnar Lovelace:

So, okay. So, alright. So, we’re in a day of your life, which I gather is not all that regular, and I suspect that there’s a lot of irregularity in your life, given being a mother and an entrepreneur and an artist, what are the habits that have stuck for you, that have been a game changer in terms of your health?

Santigold: 

Well, there are some things that I’ve gone in and out of over the years, and right now has been a particularly rough time to implement everything. But meditation is always something that I try to come back to as much as I can possibly get it in there, because I recognize the immediate benefits of just helping to regulate my nervous system, when there’s so much-

Gunnar Lovelace:

When do you meditate? When do you typically try to do it?

Santigold: 

That’s the thing, my schedule is so erratic, that’s why it’s hard for me to fit it in. But I just recently went back to doing transcendental meditation because it’s like you can literally set your clock for 20 minutes. And I know that in that time, I can drop in quickly and it will be a benefit, if I can just get in 20 minutes. And if I can do that once a day, amazing. If I can do it twice a day, even better. And I just try to do it whenever I find that I have 20 minutes, if nobody’s home for a minute, I can just do it and I’ll do it. It’s really hard to fit in, honestly.

And then for years I did Qigong, which I love so, so much. Which I haven’t been doing since — I stopped when I had the twins. He sent me home, because when I had single pregnancy, I did it all the way until like nine months. And Iyengar Yoga I was doing as well. And then when I had the twins, I could barely stand up by five months and he is like, “Okay, that’s enough.”

But those types of things. I love to swim. I do just some movement work that’s just like not stretching, but you activate all your muscles at the same time and just do things, that sort of primal movements. And I try to do that sometimes. I don’t know, I just try to stay active.

Gunnar Lovelace:

Yeah. That’s a good portfolio. I was talking to Marianne Williamson recently and she re-encouraged me to meditate first thing in the morning. But I imagine with kids that are jumping into bed, that’s a little bit difficult to do.

Santigold: 

Well, it’s also then you have to get them dressed for school, hair. I’ve had like meltdowns are happening right now. The mornings are like not happening for me.

Gunnar Lovelace:

Yeah. Once they’re at school, you kind of get a moment to take care of yourself-

Santigold:

Kind of. But look, but then I have this podcast and then I have … you know what I’m saying? It’s pretty hard. Like sometimes the days just go and sometimes to me, that’s the hardest part, when everybody you talk to, they’re like, “You just have to find time.”

And sometimes for me, there just really is no time. And that’s when I really struggle, when it’s like, just time for myself. Because you’ve got to prioritize. You’ve always got to prioritize something. And I find that in this world, we often prioritize everything but self-care.

Sometimes that’s last, until you realize you’re falling apart and then you’re like, “Oh, I haven’t been taking care of myself at all.” And I think particularly mothers, that’s a struggle for, because being a mother is inherently sort of a selfless role. And we have to remind ourselves that we can’t actually show up, unless we can take care of ourselves.

Gunnar Lovelace:

Yeah. The world turns on mothers.

Santigold: 

Yeah.

Gunnar Lovelace:

And obviously, I grew up with a single mom and just saw — I don’t know how she did it, like I just literally don’t know how she did it. She’s so strong. And I see that in you too. Just like you have to so fiercely protect your time and then the moment you actually have free time, you have to like reach deep into your soul and like just choose to like focus your energy and create and like get shit done.

Santigold: 

And obviously as an artist, it’s like you might have these windows where you can create, but then maybe the muse doesn’t arise. So, it’s such an interesting thing.

Well, there’s another thing too, see there’s two different types of self-care for an artist. Because the one self-care is actually to create, that’s the self-care for the soul to me. That’s how I keep my spirit thriving. But sometimes that means I like to stay up late at night, because that’s my hour, that’s when juices start flowing and ideas because it’s quiet, no one else is awake. There’s nobody emailing me or calling me and telling me what I have to do for the day and it’s my time.

But then there’s like, well if you stay up late, then you’re going to wake up early, you’re not going to get enough sleep. And so, then it’s not self-care for your body. So that’s, to me is a challenge, is sometimes even creativity comes before physical self-care. And that’s also not good, because you got the kids and if you have a partner, you’ve got time for that. You’ve got your work and then you’ve got the creative space that you have to make. And then there’s a physical body space and sometimes it takes a while to realize that they can be in competition with each other, the artist self and the general body care self.

Gunnar Lovelace:

Yeah. I think that’s a really challenging one for health conscious artists in general. Just the nocturnal nature of so many artists. And just the circadian sleep disruption and how that gets managed is definitely something that I’ve seen with a lot of a lot of friends.

Shifting gears, a little bit, you’ve released your fourth album in September called Spirituals. And you shared with me the last time we spoke a little bit about canceling your own tour. And I thought that was such a courageous and provocative way to approach your album and your work and would love for you just to share a little bit of that with our audience.

Santigold: 

Yeah. So, I made this record called Spirituals mostly during the pandemic part of it during lockdown. And like I said, I had three small kids when we went to lockdown. My twins had just turned two and all of a sudden there was nowhere to go and nobody to come help.

And it was just insanely challenging time, just trying to cook and clean and still had two kids in diapers and being up through the night, like I had said. And then outside of the house there was protests and riots and wildfires and, it was just really so overwhelming and just hopeless … times. And I had to figure out how I could create something because otherwise I felt like I was just going to sink. So, I found time to just sneak out to the back house and work on music and recording. And luckily for technology, I was able to record with engineers and producers from afar. We ended up going to go to like Squamish in British Columbia for five months where I was-

Gunnar Lovelace:

It’s so beautiful up there.

Santigold: 

It’s so beautiful. I rented a cabin in the woods and literally just shipped all my music equipment out and I finished my record. And the record was really a beautiful record for me because it was really about personal evolution and it was my processing of a lot that was going on in the world. And to me it was about taking care of myself and taking care of the world and rising above and creating the future that we want to live in and all these things.

And so, then when it came time to hit the road, to promote the record to tour, well first of all, look, the pandemic is officially over, but it’s the same thing. It’s still here. So, there’s the challenges of that and the toll that the trauma of that experience wreaked on all of us is still very fresh and is still active.

And coming out of that, everyone just rushes back to work. And with musicians who had been sort of forced out of work for at least about two or three years, not being able to do shows in public venues, everybody rushed back in.

And so, it was an overcrowded market, but also with all that’s happening in the world, the inflation is insane. The cost of gas alone, for flights and hotels and tour buses, which was a shortage too because so many people are out and crew members are shortage, because everybody’s out. It just became impossible to tour and make it make sense.

Financially, economically it didn’t make sense. But also for all that it takes to go into that, coming out of a time where you’re already depleted and sort of beat up emotionally and physically and spiritually, to be expected to jump back in for something that … asked to leave your family for weeks on end and to not make any money. It just doesn’t make any sense.

And the music industry’s been one that’s been broken for a very long time at this point. But there’s so many new challenges post pandemic, that it’s just become undoable for so, so, so many artists. And I found out when I canceled my tour and I felt like I had to cancel my tour because A, my body told me to. My body was like, “You’re not able to do this tour, you’re not going to do it.” But also it didn’t make sense for me economically, and one thing that I learned from writing my record was like, stop crossing your own boundaries. Take care of yourself. And I was like, that wouldn’t make any sense for me to be writing this message. And then for me to go on this tour, it’s the complete opposite of what this record’s about.

So, I sent a letter to my fans explaining the situation, and I was really shocked at the response. Not just from my fans who were extremely supportive, but from so many other artists from all over the world who were going through the same thing.

And for some reason, not for some reason, I kind of know why, but like nobody was talking about it publicly. And I think there’s so many reasons why, but we’re in this culture where everything’s based on these fake facades that we put up through social media, and you’re supposed to be like — people are buying into this false idea of success, a success that doesn’t feel good to most of the people who achieve it, first of all. So, it’s a success defined by somebody else that actually doesn’t work.

And so, we’re also caught up in that, that it seemed extremely vulnerable to be honest and to say, “Hey, this actually isn’t working.” Because you fear you’re going to look like you’re a failure or you’re going to lose your intrigue. But the opposite was the case. It was like, oh, someone’s being honest and telling the truth. And the support and the amount of people that showed up for that and felt relieved to hear somebody that was making them feel heard and seen for their experience was overwhelming.

Gunnar Lovelace:

Yeah. It’s so many different pieces to that, that I think are just incredible. I think the music industry, people don’t realize how corrupt it actually is and how controlled it is by just a few players. And as an artist, it’s so intense to go through that process and so, I think it’s just really fascinating.

And then, one of the things that I thought was so interesting about, when you shared it with me the last time we spoke, the fact that that happened became kind of a viral thing into itself. And you had a ton of press about that whole topic in of itself, which I’m sure was like a really great like collateral benefit for the album itself. 

But it was really interesting that unsurprisingly, you led a very important conversation to be had about the music industry and the way it takes advantage of its artists.

Santigold: 

Yeah. It’s because no one had written about it yet, which is amazing. And some of the journalists were like, “I’ve been trying to write this story for four years, and nobody thought that anybody wanted to hear it until you wrote that, and they saw the response from so many people and so many artists who were having the same experience.” And this post pandemic landscape is just undeniable. People are dropping tours left and right, and so you could see that there’s something going on that wasn’t happening before. And I think just the opportunity for people to be vocal about what it was, was great.

And there’s so much, that’s just like the very tip of one nail out of the floodgate, because there’s so much that needs to change in the music industry. Like you said, it is an industry that’s broken. I don’t know any other industry where you spend so much money making a product and then basically are forced to give it away for free. That’s what the experience of the artist is and the audiences don’t realize that. They’re like, “Oh, cool, like we download, we stream music now and it’s great.” And we’re never going back. So, it’s got to be great. And it could be great if it was fair for artists. But they’ve created a system that’s completely unfair for artists, where artists don’t really make any money from the streams and are left to kind of go out and figure out how to feed themselves. And people think that touring is like, “Oh, well they can just tour.” But touring doesn’t equate the same profits from selling music, when you make music, but also it requires you to … the mental and physical toll of having to be on the road, all the time.

Gunnar Lovelace:

Such a grind.

Santigold: 

It’s unsustainable. Even the people at the highest level, the people who are selling out arenas nightly are having like to go to the hospital and like stuff behind the scenes because it’s grueling, it’s unsustainable. And we need to talk about sort of the rate of consumption and we need to talk about the entitlement of people for music. And the fact that it’s become so devalued and people think of music as just something for the background of TikTok or something for the background of commercials or TV shows and it’s free.

And kids growing up now, can you imagine if your subscription like just goes to your parents’ credit card? There’s really no concept of the fact that like a physical person is making this music and it’s a job. So, how do they get paid? It’s like the kids, like you press a button, there’s music. You flick on the switch, there’s lights. And even these festivals that, some of the biggest festivals in the world are paying artists not even enough to fly to the festival to perform.

And they’re like, “Oh, well it’s good promo for you.” While they pretend that they’re non-profit festivals and they make all this money because they make a donation of money to charity or something that they should be giving to artists. You see what I’m saying? I’m not saying don’t give to charity, but first pay the performers, so that they get-

Gunnar Lovelace:

Yeah. I think that piece about people don’t even recognize where music comes from. It’s definitely like amazing how pervasive, you ask people where the food that we eat comes from and they say it from the grocery store.

And so, look, I really love many aspects of capitalism, but so much of it is also dysfunctional because it doesn’t take in the true cost of the things that we buy or the ways that they’re made. And I think it’s one of the challenges that we face as a species right now is really in the absence of that information being readily available, we have to constantly ask ourselves where did this thing come from and how was it made? And did it leave the world and the stakeholders worse off? Or did it leave him better off? And I think you and I have been very much in that conversation in our own lives and in our friendship. Like we’re deeply dedicated to that idea of serving a higher power, a multi-generational positive future for humanity.

And so, I think it’s such an important conversation that we constantly have to ask ourselves, where did this thing come from? And the convenience culture, everything’s just like, we expect it and then we’re conditioned to it. Just the way that we buy things on Amazon now, we don’t even think about it. Like a couple flicks of our finger and like a box shows up.

Santigold:

No. And it’s so convenient. And the thing about it though is if you ever try to go get something locally instead, it’s nowhere to be found anymore because everybody’s getting shut down because … you know what I mean? It’s like these huge monopolies are just — even like, if they knock off people, they’ve become so massive that you can’t compete with them. And then there’s really no other options sometimes. Like you’d have to plan way in advance to find something because it’s nowhere locally near you. And-

Gunnar Lovelace:

Yeah. At Thrive Market, our supply chain logistics are … it’s really hard. It’s really complicated. Because we strive to make it really affordable for people, we had to come up with this membership model. And then, even for people that couldn’t afford a membership, we wanted people to have access. So, we give a membership away for every paid membership.

Santigold: 

Yeah. That’s amazing.

Gunnar Lovelace:

But just the sheer logistics of like working with farmers all over the world and taking care of people in that process, taking care of the planet, getting it to a warehouse, taking care of our employees, our teams, getting it shipped to our customers, it’s challenging. And we’re able to do it because our team is so good, but it’s a knife fight. It’s hard. It is not an easy business.

Santigold:

But that’s the thing. And I think that the biggest problem in America and pretty much worldwide at this point, is the value of money over humanity and the lack of concern for doing things sustainably and sustainably for the planet, but also sustainable for human beings. And that’s how your mission at Thrive. And like letting people know where the food comes from is actually the same mission as wanting people to know where their music comes from and how it’s made. And I think there needs to be a shift of values, where it’s not just about the bottom line all the time. It’s about the bottom line, the workers, the environment, people being able to support themselves, people being able to have balanced lives that are not making everybody have mental health issues. You know what I mean? It’s like we are actually ruining ourselves and the planets while a couple people reap all the benefits. And then instead of collectively being like, “There’s something wrong with this, everyone’s like, “I want to be one of the couple people.” That’s America. Do you know what I mean?

Gunnar Lovelace:

Yeah. And that’s actually at the heart of the insanity, that we get sold this completely insane vision of life as if it’s the height of success. We’re going to hold up this image of somebody who without consideration for anybody else, so that they can have three yachts and how did that actually happen in the first place? And what were the true costs of those empires, both in terms of the destruction of the planet and the suffering of people? I was reading recently just the way that we’re producing food today, scientists estimate that we have less than 60 harvests left on the planet.

Santigold: 

Wow.

Gunnar Lovelace:

Just like in the sheer scope of industrial agriculture today, the way that we are destroying the top soil with just incredible amount of toxicity, less than 60 harvests left on the planet, which is a staggering statistic. You think it’s like, oh my God, our grandchildren will be facing a future without a real shift in agriculture. Which thankfully, there are some really positive things happening.

But unless those things become truly systemic, our grandchildren will be looking at a future where their children are going to wonder, “Are we amongst the last people to actually like consistently get food, well on the planet?”

Santigold: 

I know. And can you imagine what it’s like for even teenagers now knowing that we’re in this situation and how they’re already feeling? The rate of depression right now is insane because it feels very hopeless. And I know that there are changes happening and I love that so much of the youth is so motivated to do this work of protesting and pushing forward and it’s so important. But we need to do better. The 80-year-old heads of the country need to do better in joining this energy of-

Gunnar Lovelace:

Real structural transformation. You and I both-

Santigold: 

Because the politics thing is … the fact that it costs so much money to even run. Can you imagine if we had young people who didn’t care whether they’re elected again, they’d just like, “Look, I want to change the law of farming. I want to make regenerative farming like what you have to do.” And so, they get in, they do it, and then nobody wants to reelect them, fine. But we need like people to take risk. And I just think we’re so stuck because of the same old thing. It’s the capitalist thing.

Gunnar Lovelace:

Yeah. And I think I am fundamentally an optimist. I’m so inspired by the fundamental creativity of the human species. Our capacity to create solutions and the incredible creativity of our species, it’s incredible. You just kind of zoom out, you look at it and you’re like, “Oh, it’s so amazing.” And yet there’s just this, I think it’s like unresolved survival trauma where we’re still so consumed with our own self-interest all the time. And I’m right there with you. I’m totally self-absorbed most of the time, because I’m just trying to get through the day.

Santigold: 

Yes. Survival things.

Gunnar Lovelace:

It’s survival. And it’s interesting because you and I have spent a lot of time talking about solutions and the challenges we face. And we met at a conference and like you, I spent a lot of time thinking about, “Well, how do we actually try to create those positive shifts?” And one of the things that’s been the most interesting fact pattern that I’ve seen is that these older, white male, super wealthy captains of industry very often they make some of the biggest changes that one has seen recently, has actually come about from pressure from their daughters and their granddaughters.

Santigold:

Wow.

Gunnar Lovelace:

And there’s actually organizations now that specifically work to support and build bridges with the daughters of billionaires because it’s been shown to be so effective in getting people to consider a broader perspective.

Santigold: 

Yeah. I think that’s one thing that needs to happen, but I also think that we need to create less billionaires.

Gunnar Lovelace:

Sure. No argument there. So, I’m curious, thriving and spirituality for you, how do those complement each other? Like obviously, I feel like you and I, like we live so deeply. You live so deeply in the immediacy of your world, like as a mother and as an artist and an entrepreneur, and yet you have these huge landscape of your mind and your consciousness. And I’m curious how those things meet in the context of thriving and spirituality.

Santigold:

Well, I think the way that you thrive in spirituality, or the way that I have is literally a perspective, that we come here as spirits to experience a life that’s meant to help our spirits evolve further. That’s what I believe. So, if you have that perspective throughout your life, then you are able to view everything as thriving and spirituality. Which is a challenge. And that’s why meditation is so important, because it just helps renew the perspective. Because what happens is, when you’re in the mundane pressures of no sleep, work, financial stress, partner stress, whatever, environmental stress, you lose perspective, it’s so overwhelming. It’s physically taxing on the body. You’re feeling sick, you’re feeling exhausted. When you’re exhausted, your brain’s not working. And so, just to be able to tap back in, often through creativity for me and then sometimes through meditation, which also stimulates creativity. That’s how I reconnect with the higher self.

And that’s something I learned luckily early enough, that when I do creative acts I’m able to tap into the higher version of myself and achieve a different type of perspective and even tap into a different consciousness even. Some of the stuff that I write, I’ve written words that I didn’t know what they meant and I had to look them up. When you’re like, “Who’s writing this?”

And that’s something I’ve learned. It’s like all I have to do is go inward. And even like things I’ve practiced, I’ve done in shamanic journeying where you can travel with your spirit animal and stuff like that. And that’s about perspective, just being able to tap into the higher perspective to see without all the anxiety and the panic and the exhaustion, where you are on your path and how the challenges that you face are actually working towards something. And the surrender and the creativity of perspective to be like, “What am I gaining from this? Like where is this taking me?” And it’s really a path of constant self-reflection, like constant.

And that’s what’s so beautiful about life is that along the path, as you go on, if you’re open to it, you’re constantly finding a new way to see yourself and to challenge yourself. Like I’ve just recently started a book project, it’s a memoir, but it goes back four generations of women in my family to my great-grandmother in Mississippi. And it’s like a lot of it is really about some of the generational trauma and the progress of black women in America. And that’s something that I’ve just newly been working with is like trauma that’s from generations before me that I have and the somatic work.

And like, that stuff is so interesting and I’ve just recently learned about it and I’m always learning something. And I think the thing about being a creative, someone said this to me, they’re like, “Oh, you know … they said it to me about youth, actually, they’re like an age. Because I was like, “I don’t feel this old.” And they’re like, “Well, age is nothing. Youth is the ability to constantly rebirth yourself, in creativity and your ideas and your transitions in your life.” And as long as you can do that, you never need to feel old because it’s always new. And I think it’s the same with creativity and how you view yourself and the world. It should be that it’s always a rebirth and it’s always transformation.

Gunnar Lovelace:

I love that. We talked on this at the beginning, it’s just the whole orientation of being a forever student of life, it’s just a funner way to live. Like it’s just more fun. It’s more interesting. And so, I really resonate with that.

And yeah. Shifting to another topic, one of the things we’ve talked about in the past and it in a way kind of relates, is this kind of orientation of like wanting to always stay open-minded. And just kind of like the facileness of one’s consciousness and identity framework where we’re not so rigidly attached to a viewpoint. And all of the polarization that has come from that. And I’m curious, you shared some perspectives on some of the ways that you’ve been navigating wokeness, for example, with the podcast interview that you have. And I’m curious like how that shows up for you in navigating in the popular culture.

Santigold:

You mean basically being open-minded and being able to detach yourself?

Gunnar Lovelace:

Yeah. Like you shared that you’re bringing two people with very different viewpoints and one of them, there’s some really significant controversy around him, for example, and just kind of like your own deliberations and perspectives on bringing those kinds of voices together.

Santigold: 

Well, my most recent podcast was on cancel culture, which I’ve found pretty scary to do a podcast on because it’s like, it’s almost anything you say, you can get canceled. But my point in doing it, was because I think it really needs to be said that there’s some dangers to sort of the mob take down mentality, where somebody can say something and immediately like lose everything without any conversation. And there’s so many instances where I do believe people should lose everything because of something that they did or something that they said. But there’s also instances where that may not be the case.

And so, my point was that we need to be more into the idea of communicating and creating environments where people are not afraid to mess up. Because that’s how we progress as individuals. And it’s really important for us to keep that framework in our conversations, because we are living in a time where human beings are so intensely divided.

And unfortunately, we are not getting anywhere like that. There’s just no way. It takes us being able to work together to tackle any of the things that we’re facing, specifically being humans on this planet. Like we’re not going to get anywhere if we can’t come together around things that are really urgent and important things for our survival. And I think that the politicians and the capitalists and the corporations have been very — and I’m not saying I’m an anti-capitalist either. I’m just saying like the skewed values right now are dangerous for everybody because we’re all being manipulated, so that they can continue up on their agendas of money making at all costs. But like, we need to be able to think for ourselves and communicate with each other and not be so easily torn apart and also not be so quick to turn off. Because what happens is we just follow like sheep, if there’s video games, we’re on it, and if there’s social media, we’re on it. If there’s drugs and that’s what people talking about with music, we’re on them.

And I just think we need to wake up and connect, because those are things that also keep us from connecting. All of that stuff keeps us from connecting. And so, I think that in order to connect, we have to learn how to disagree, and we have to learn how to be okay with disagreeing sometimes. Everybody’s not going to think exactly the same. And I do believe that if somebody’s saying something that’s harmful or that’s creating, inciting hatred or danger for people, that’s unacceptable. And there’s a lot of work to be done there. And I’m so happy and proud that people are being held accountable for all the things forever, that no one’s been held accountable for. And I think that’s tremendous progress.

So, I’m not at all saying that that’s a problem, but I also think that we can’t run away with that and get lost in it. That’s all I’m saying.

Gunnar Lovelace:

Yeah. Obviously there’s such a history of challenges and exploitation and then there’s this whole other context of like, whether you’re identified as left or right or Democrat or Independent or Republican, just the way that it’s so polarized. I have very close friends with people that served very high up on the Trump administration and friends that are very close with Ron Paul, as a Libertarian. And you and I both met at a Bernie Sanders event where we spoke.

Like I want to hear where people’s perspectives are. I want to understand what they’re thinking and why they’re thinking it and what’s behind it and what’s valuable to understand from those perspectives as opposed to just this super rigid orientation to, I’m just going to shut you out because you didn’t say something exactly politically correct or you didn’t … whatever it was. And I think what you’re sharing about not being afraid to make mistakes, it’s so important because, one of the greatest ways that we learn is by making mistakes. And if we’re so afraid to make mistakes and then we’re really-

Santigold: 

Then we don’t progress.

Gunnar Lovelace:

Exactly. We really limit our growth. And just for everybody in the audience, this is on Santigold’s podcast, Noble Champions. So, we are just referencing a recent podcast she did on Cancel Culture, which is obviously a part of what we’re talking about today.

Shifting gears again, knowing that we’re kind of coming near the end of our time here. I am so grateful to my mother for her strength and her courage to chart a better path for us and our family. And I’m curious for you as a mother, when you think about how you template health to your children, how you model it, in a culture that makes empty calories of sugar so readily available and so easy. And like my mother used to have to manage what I was eating when I went to friends’ houses, for example. And I’m curious, like what do you find is like the biggest challenge that you face as a mother, as it relates to the ways that you create healthy patterns for your children?

Santigold: 

Well, it’s really hard, because if it was just me and if it was just my kids and I was just running the ship, we lived on a submarine, it would be easy. Because I’m like, “This is what you eat and this is what’s good, and whatever.”

The problem is when they come into contact with the entire rest of the world, or even my partner isn’t always on the same page as me with food choices and everything. And then there’s, every holiday is candy based for children too. So, I’ll do something like … even actually, I ordered a whole bunch of like natural candy from Thrive for Halloween, I was like, “We’ll use this.” And then they didn’t, they went trick or treating and they didn’t want the candy with the erythritol, you know what I mean? They wanted the candy that their friends had.

And so, what I do is, first of all, I try to buy, anything that I’m buying in the house, I try to keep it healthy. I also try to instill the information and the perspective on them. Like what you eat is associated with how you feel and how healthy you are and your life, your longevity and how well your brain works. And so, basically, I think that’s the best we can do as mothers is just like, try to teach our kids how to make good decisions for themselves early on. Because even as they get to be teenagers, you’re not going to be around, they’re going to be faced with all kinds of things, have to make good decisions for themselves.

So, I think as parents, the best thing that we can do is try to give them the skills to make good decisions for themselves and give them into information to let them know why, why they’re making these decisions. And that even goes with stuff about the planet and where we get our food from and what is organic and why is it that when you go in these neighborhoods, this food is only available? And those conversations are just so important. Why can’t we watch all of this type of TV? Those conversations are how I try to teach my kids. Just being really honest with them. I’m really honest with my kids. Even about, Thanksgiving, that’s a good one we just passed and what that’s about and where did that come from and what happened? Why does everybody think it’s about one thing when it’s not really about that? Those conversations. My kids are four and eight and we have those conversations and I think that that’s how you instill health in your children. And also, the idea that health is holistic. My kids see me meditating lately, one my four-year-old came and he just sat in the room and was flipping through a book. He wasn’t distracting me, so I let him stay, and then he laid his body on me while I meditated. And it’s so important because not only does that help them see that that’s what mommy does as part of her self-care, and that’s what you should learn to do, but also they can feel it. You’re actually helping regulate them.

Gunnar Lovelace:

Yeah. That’s beautiful. Just regulating the nervous system together. That’s such a beautiful … that’s like one of those moments you’ll never forget in your life. Like you’re meditating and your child regulates with you and it’s just such a sweet — we’re warm blooded mammals, so we love to press our bodies against each other and regulate.

You look at animals in any form, they’re mammals, they’re always like (when they’re in a pack), touching each other. It’s really, really beautiful. We’re wrapping up here. So, we have a couple questions at the end, we like to ask people, just kind of quick, off the cuff. What does thriving mean to you?

Santigold: 

I think thriving, and I don’t have a good definition, but I imagine that thriving is when you’re continuing to grow and evolve. Yeah.

Gunnar Lovelace:

It’s beautiful. And what areas in your life do you feel like you want to change to thrive more? Like what are the areas where you feel like you could make changes that would be helpful?

Santigold: 

I would love to create more space for myself to do the things that help me thrive. And I think that involves so many different things, but I think that the pace of life right now is really challenging for me. And so, I’m working on figuring out how to create more of the pace that I want. And that’s going to involve defining success for myself, my own way and creating an environment of support for myself, as a black woman and as a mother, that’s very challenging because that’s one of the genetic conditionings, one of the generational trauma things that we inherit is like, to take on things, to carry that aren’t necessarily ours to carry. That’s what’s been passed down and I want to start to undo that and to make sure I have the support that I need. Those are a couple things.

Gunnar Lovelace:

Yeah. And I think that whole relationship with time, I feel like that’s one of the more complicated things that we navigate. And I’m so grateful that you shared your time with us. Really encourage our listeners to go check out your podcast, Noble Champions and your album Spirituals and to follow your-

Santigold: 

And my tea. And my Spirituals tea, while you listen-

Gunnar Lovelace:

And your Spirituals tea, while you’re calming and regulating yourself, sipping tea and listening to beautiful music. And just so grateful for you. I’m so happy that we met. I know we’re going to be friends for life and-

Santigold:

I know. I’m like, “I want to call you right after this podcast.”

Gunnar Lovelace:

Yeah. I really appreciate you and I really hope, for both of us, we develop healthier relationships with time, that give us the space. And that’s definitely a prayer that I have for both of us. And I really relate to that. And I’m so grateful that you’ve given us some time and I’m really grateful that our audience gets to learn a little bit about you and just the incredible way that you think and feel and just have a lot of love and respect for you.

Santigold: 

Thank you. Same here, Gunnar.

Gunnar Lovelace (58:14):

Yeah, okay. Take care. Thank you so much.